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4:04 pm
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October 24, 2012
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I don’t think we have seen the last of the issues with rules, so I’m curious why is the vast majority of people seem to want to adopt ASA rules. In my opinion I think we need to solidify our own rules. If we are going to be an archery club with ASA rules, why not just convert all to ASA clubs? I think we need our own separate identity My county has both a BHA and ASA club. On weekends where both of our clubs have had tournaments our shoots have far surpassed ASA in numbers of shooters. This summer, even with the rain killing some of my numbers, we still managed about 60-70 shooters. The ASA club had significantly less, somewhere in the number of 5-10 shooters. The ASA club director is a great guy who people think very well of. So I have personally seen ASA rules go head to head with ours and ours do better even when bha was pulling shooters to the area from across the state. If you will remember, I even tried to advertise for him on this website when I posted the notification of our shoot. So what is it that makes ASA rules so appealing? Is it the money payback? Another thing I was thinking about, do we have any rules in place about the maximum diameter an arrow can be in a tournament? I know ASA does. I’m open minded, lets talk about it class for class lay the pro’s and cons out. Someone sell it to me.
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BHA Webmaster4:34 pm
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October 24, 2012
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I know that post was rambling but I think if we start now, we can really get stuff accomplished in our next meeting. Also, nothing I wrote had a condasending overtone to it. It was a legitimate discussion starter.
5:28 pm
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March 12, 2013
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From what I can gather it would do two things. 1) BHA wouldn’t have to take up a bunch of time making rules they can focus on bowhunting and other projects 2) ASA shooters could come to BHA shoots without having to change anything on their bows with regard to speed. As you can see the speed limit was a big deal. It was just a way to relieve BHA of having to hash out rules and to let ASA shooters come to BHA shoots without having to tweak on their bow. It is not to change the BHA identity but just a way to allow more shooters at a BHA shoot, basically. Not saying any of this is right or wrong it’s just they way I understand the reasoning behind going to ASA rules. I thinik it would be fine. BHA’s indentity has never been defined by tournament rules anyway has it? When I hear people talk about BHA they talk about the organization’s charitable works and what the do for bowhunting in Alabama. I just don’t make the correlation that tournament rules would change the identity of BHA. I mean think about it. If you hold a club shoot the by laws state that you don’t have to use BHA rules at all if you don’t want to. I know their is a “gentleman’s agreement” to do so but you don’t have to. I say if it is not a trail shoot do what you want. Follow BHA or don’t. What works in your county may not work for mine and what works in my county may not work for you.
6:28 pm
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October 24, 2012
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Thanks lance for your input. That’s all I’m wanting people to do get the conversation started. My only rebuttal to your comment, is that the tournaments are the lifeblood of our organization. Without them most clubs would go under.
7:04 pm
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October 24, 2012
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Good comments. The only thing about having rules is that u most enforce them. Since most club shoots don’t have a chronograph set up, let singles and doubles go out, and don’t post any rules , why have rules to begin with?
8:34 pm
I think Lance summed it up well with his 2 points as to why we want ASA rules. As for not enforcing rules, Everyone shares responsibility in that. You normally only have limited volunteers at a local shoot and they are busy signing up shooters and cooking food. Sure, we can check speed and check equipment before you go out but A lot of rule breaking occurs on the course. So, that means that people must be willing to turn in rule breakers in their own group. And most of the time people are not willing to do it. IT TAKES EVERYONE TO ENFORCE RULES!
10:15 pm
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October 24, 2012
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The only thing keeping the ASA shooters from shooting with us is the speed from what I see. So if we went to 290 fps would that bring them back ?
8:03 am
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October 24, 2012
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I don’t think it would, I shot both ASA and BHA this year, and never changed my set up. Someone said on here the other day that we don’t have any rule written for tie breakers, ASA does, as far as I know we don’t have a maximum arrow diameter rule, ASA does. I personally don’t like shooting at upper or lower 12’s like they do. My scores are generally higher on center 12 courses. Our rules almost mirror each other anyways, I guess speed limit is about the biggest issue. The only other thing I can think of that is different is that we make the shooter touch the stake with some part of the body. ASA now allows the shooter to straddle it if they wish. That really only comes into play if whoever is setting up the course wishes to intentionally put the shooter off balance with a rock or root or something. What are some of the other differences between the rules?
4:16 pm
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October 24, 2012
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Looking and comparing rules I see that the biggest difference is detail. ASA rules are very detailed and exact.
BHA could mirror most of the rules (in writing) and have a great “standard” . This, by no means, keeps us (BHA) from “twiking” those rules or adding to them with specific classes or eliminating some classes (ASA has a bunch!). For instance, most of us like center 12’s….an Unlimited Bowhunter Class could be added….etc.
Rules of conduct and shooting rules (not including equipment rules) are very detailed and should be enforced.
Some of the rules broken at our BHA shoots this year include “time limit to shoot” infractions, not touching the shooter stake, not shooting with a group (for competition scoring) and basic courtesy rules. As Kenny said, it is up to US to report rule-breaking. It is up to EACH SHOOTER to be knowledgeable about the rules before signing up for competition. In some cases, if a rule is about to be broken, the other shooters give a “warning” and if an infraction continues, it should be reported.
If rules are broken the scorekeeper should give a zero for the target.
By adopting the basic ASA rules we can attract more shooters.
By adding an Unlimited Bowhunter Class we can attract more “bow hunters” to shoot 3-D during the season.
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headshot5:28 pm
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November 21, 2012
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Guys I love BHA!!!!!!!!!! If we keep doing things the same way ,were going to get the same results!!!!!!!!Our attendence is going in the wrong direction……….
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Leldon Futral, Fatality
I would like to ask what rules, procedures, classes, etc does ASA have that ASA shooters don’t like. And what does BHA do better than ASA?
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khooperBHA Webmaster
10:05 am
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October 24, 2012
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Here is a well written letter from a previous member that did not join after the 3 year lock was implemented and it seemed hopeless to get this orqanization moving forward. He is just one out of many that have silently just let it go. I have been trying to plead with people to see our numbers dropping ; for it to only fall on deaf ears. Here is his take on things.
Guys,
I see a response to “why asa rules” post on BHA, and would like to respond. really don’t know who to send the response to but knowing your involvement, hopefully, you know who i can get send it to.
My response to the what i dislike about ASA vs BHA is nothing. ASA listens to their classes, their membership and makes the changes accordingly if it makes sen$e and increases attendance. When the membership speaks they listen. By far they are the most progressive thinkers in the industry.
Recently “Regions” orginization started up. I talked to allot of frineds back home who joined and shot their events. They are basically a hybrid orginization between the ASA and IBO. High and low 12’s but speed limits set up like the IBO with know/unknown events. From my understanding they are starting to take off and they have six events a year one in each region from the west coast to the east coast.
To compare the BHA agains the ASA would litterally be comparing a little league baseball team vs MLB. With corporate sponsors, novelty shoots, and backing from spon$ors there is no comparison. The prizes go beyond that when you start placing in the top spots from just a check with a few hundered dollars is recognition and sponsorships from manufacturers. Let’s face it archers are some of the stingiest people out there…if they can cut a corner or get a sponsor for “AIR” to get something for free they would take it!
The BHA’s primary objective is bowhunting in the state of AL, and that is AWESOME! However, they entered into the world of tournament shooting, and with that comes quite a bit of responsiblity. This i know, understand, and have experienced first hand! If your going to do this there is not dipping in your toe, or going into the kiddy pool. We have all started into this sport as a hunter, beleive it or not i did too! We are all hunteres at heart…but we all have a competitive side too. What starts out as practice for hunting turns into freindly competition, more drive to succeed and win. But everybody has their stopping point as to where they want to hang their hat (class) some are happy with bowhunter class, some to see what limits they can push and jump into unlimited classes, then advance to pro classes!
With all of the other orginizations that have had something to do with both hunting/tournament shooting i have never seen an orginization that let’s their members vote on rules and regulations. That would be like having the whole entire population of the USA vote on all legislation in DC. All of the orginizations had regions that elected representitives to vote for their regions. Giving each region an equal vote/say/representation in the orginization. All you have to do here in the BHA is have a majority vote. If someone doesn’t like something he piles up all of his buddies in the car takes off to the state meeting and they all vote down that item.
What is the cost of 10-20 memberships or possibly loosing 10-20 members next year? I think i can see it in one rule, the speed limit rule. With that one rule you may have had 20 members who did’t want it, or it may not even effect, now keeps 20 from not renewing or even joining up. $300 out of the BHA pocket because of people acting on their behalf instead of the growth, developemet, diversity, and strength of BHA.
The question “What needs to be done to grow the BHA” does not need to be asked to the general membership, they are already their! They need to ask those people who left and may leave. They need to ask people who arn’t members to find out what would bring them in or back. I know the BHA use to have the back page of some magazine issue that they had the oportunity to advertise a page…maybe that would be a good place to start asking! You need a BIG BOLD HEADLINE to catch their eye, and 2 or 3 sentences to really get to the point, tell them what you want from them, but MOST IMPORTANTLY show them the willingness to go forward and capture them with what appeals to them.
Personally i am EXSTATIC that they have finally approved a known distance class, however everybody else i shoot with and travel with shoot ASA shoots and do not want to switch back and forth to particiapte in both the ASA and BHA because of the speedlimits. Some have not joined this year because of this rule,, some will not be renewing next year becasue of this rule. I quite frankly am torn on weather or not i’mi going to join becasue while i may want ot go to a trail shoot to comptete i really have no reason to drive to the other send of the state to shoot a trail shoot when i may be able to drive only an hour to practice locally or just in my back yard.
This will be my first and last time on the soap box. I said my peace.
Sincerely,
Patrick Sinal
724-366-3596
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nighthunter, Dirk7:20 pm
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October 24, 2012
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The things I think needs to be changed are:
1. No 50 yard classes and match ASA in distance shot max 45 or make it shorter so at least a person can shoot up in another class if they desire. It takes twice as long to shoot if all the targets are longer. People take too long already but if they have to walk farther and the shot is longer it takes more time. How many have thought of this item ? Probably none except those that are having to do it. It has ben proven people enjoy shooting courses that are not ridiculously set. It goes against common sense to do otherwise. The people that set hard courses are giving the home team an advantage and are hurting themselves. Just because people are not telling you this does not mean they approve. They are quietly just not coming back. OPen A should be shoot what you bring.
2.Do away with the speed limits so IBO and ASA shooters can participate.We have lost the IBO guys back when we stepped on their toes several years back.The ones still shooting with us are switching bows.This was the first time the speed limit impacted the ASA people and it showed in participation.
3. Add the classes the Traditional Shooters need to have a place to shoot . There are long bows and recurves which are very different and we ran them off when we went to one class.
4. Add a known distance class at 45 yards . It is known and not unknown so why in the world would you shoot them closer than the Red Stake. Shoot what you bring.
5.Add a crossbow class with shoot what you bring from 40 yards and there needs to be a safety factor.
6. Lighten up on the touching the stake rule to read like ASA so people can concentrate on shooting instead of being nick picky because someone setting a course gets his jolleys off making a shooter shoot bad because he can’t stand in the position. I f I am hunting I believe I have enough sense to shift my feet to a comfortable position. This item alone for people to complain about tells you all you need to know. I believe in touching the stake and shooting per the rule but it is just another thing to do away with. Some people are left hand and some in wheel chairs and all need to be able to shoot.
7.Make the courses shooter friendly instead of flufffing some course setter’s ego .
8. Adopt a complete set of rules with all things covered.
I have several more but this will give a little fodder to chew on. ASA rules would solve most of these items except the Trad Guys. They don’t like compound shooters because they take too long to shoot and it is a legitimate complaint. We have compounded this problem by making the courses longer and harder to full fill egos instead of using common sense. Common Sense dictates we give the shooters what they want because they are the life blood. The people setting at home and not shooting do not need to be making rules.
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nighthunter, Dirk8:05 pm
Leldon, whatever we do I don’t want to add anymore stakes. We can put the red and green stakes where we think would be best but let’s not add another. I think you are piss’n in the wind with making any changes for trad shooters. The only way you *might* get trad shooters to attend our shoots is to set up a course just for them and that ain’t going to happen. Most clubs don’t even have enough targets. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to have good attendance from trad shooters but I have talked to many of them at our shoots and it is just not going to happen. As for Crossbows, the class was already voted in.
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Leldon Futral, nighthunter12:18 pm
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October 24, 2012
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I sure am not advocating more stakes. We need the red at 45. Everyone has been saying this for 4 years and it is like people shooting the 30 yard class think we should be shooting farther. I hear noone shooting the red now that believes we should be 50 except the people that are not shooting the red. I understand your comments on the traditional side but that has split our numbers and in jeporady of splitting the Red stake shooters now. The crossbow class being voted in shows how we just do things without a reason. What will their speed be? We went to a meeting and came out with two things half cocked. We now have a known class with a 40 yard max and an Unknown with a 50 yard max. This just does not figure for me. It shows me we have major problems in fairness and providing a even platform for competition. I am done with these discussions and most people will never get the logic they are presenting. Classes should be set by reasoning and common sense with equipment and ability.
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Dirk, nighthunter2:56 pm
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October 24, 2012
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Knee-jerk passing of non-detailed and un-researched motions are not good.
Many motions failed at our last meeting and the reason was that most felt they were not complete and did not fully explain the reasoning or the method.
The crossbow class was passed…but the Tournament Rules Committee will have to address safety, speed and other variables not shared by compound and traditional shooters.
I believe the way that we can be most productive and efficent in the growth of BHA is to have meetings as the one planned by our Central Zone Director, Kenny, to actively move forward with progressive ideas. All three of the BHA Zones should have regular meetings at least 3 times per year and the Zone Directors should meet to share those ideas and bring them to the BHA Board meetings.
The Board Meetings are necessary, but not creative. The growth and direction of BHA should come from our Zone Directors that are actively working and listening to the membership.
The creation of teams to address membership, group hunts, public relations, growth activities, and sponsor recruitment is necessary to move us into the future.
These areas are not “one man” operations. You don’t have one horse to move a loaded wagon out of a mudhole…you need a team pulling TOGETHER.
3:56 pm
Larry, I actually showed up at the May board with a complete set amended rules to present as a motion. For example, I added language throughout the BHA rules that were needed to implement the crossbow class, distance, speed, safety etc. I had put much thought into my proposed changes I was told by the executive board that the best chance of getting anything passed was to break it up into small pieces. So I created multiple small(in length) motions. They were tweaked after discussion by those present at the meeting, otherwise the some of the motions would have failed at the May meeting and never made it to August. The problem is that you have to simplify(dumb down) everything in order to get enough people to agree on it and get it passed. The process just doesn’t work when it comes to setting 3D rules. There are way to many people trying to agree on each little piece of our rules. Like I mentioned before, aIlowing life members to vote is CRAZY. NO other legitimate organization that I know of does this. All this does is make it impossible to be as productive and proactive as we need to be.
Until we decide to move away from our current process of setting 3D rules we are doomed to never be the organization we should be on the 3D side of he house.
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nighthunter, Fatality5:55 pm
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October 24, 2012
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Sounds like the Pelosi and the Democrats way of passing ObamaCare……………We’ll find out what’s in it later…………
Have we not learned anything??
Let’s start doing things like we’ve thought about them…and do it with ALL the facts…and in an intellegent way…..
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Leldon Futral, Fatality, nighthunter11:55 am
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October 30, 2012
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Here are a few things that I believe need to be passed.
Proxy votes need to be removed for Life Members. If you don’t care enough to be there you don’t need to vote. And yes, that includes me as well.
The speed limit needs to be removed or moved up ALOT!
The tournament committee needs to set the 3D rules for BHA each year. Get that out of the boards hands.
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Fatality, Leldon Futral2:38 pm
Life Member
November 21, 2012
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Any BHA shooter can take their equipment and shoot in IBO or ASA, have their choice of several different classes ………..IBO or ASA shooter in BHA……shoot for fun………I can walk to Jackie Caudle range,Jeff and Andy Doss ,drive to John Champions range in 15 minutes….40 new targets….to shoot for fun…..BHA should be more shooter friendly than ASA and IBO…..WE ARE NOT………That is why were not attracting these shooters….not growing……For those who say were a BOWHUNTING organation………kick a place in your group,shoot what you bring !!!! I shot every NZ shoot last year,I travel with Andy and Jeff,Tough choice this year,walk 5 min or drive 2 to 3 hrs for them to shoot for fun…..
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