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8:23 pm
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October 24, 2012
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We had several discussions a while back about the speed limit and other items that needed changing. Does any one have any suggestions or wish list items? If enough members want changes they have to be put into motion at the May Board meeting. The first item would be to rewrite the bylaw concerning the three year lock. That would have to be entered at the May board meeting and repealed at the State meeting. Keep all the comments to helpful ideas and suggestions and hopefully we can get some good ideas that will benifit the organization to make us grow. Remember the first item would be to rewrite the bylaws to change the three year lock before anything can be changed.
8:59 pm
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Life Member
November 28, 2012
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I am still wondering if we dropped the ball a little by not implementing the Known class. It’s ASAs largest class.
Here is a summary of am email I sent to the Texas ASA State Director this past January.
Email to Mike Smith
Our local shoots have 20 targets and we have no known classes. We would like to start having known classes but we have a large group who feels cheating would be ram-pet if we allow some users in a shooting group to shoot unknown and some using rangefinders.
I seem to think a known class would just pull shooters from other open classes but I am open for anything that increases participation.
I thought you may have some tips and pointers on this issue.
Mike Smith’s response:
Jason,
Our Texas ASA State Championship will be held at Abilene Bowhunters this year. We should have between 300 to 400 shooters.
To answer your question about known distance competition. We had the same concerns when ASA first announced that we would have known distance classes. I even considered having the known classes shoot on Sunday only to prevent a known shooter from sharing info but we decided against that idea. After several years of known distance competition we have not had one problem or complaint and we have over 20 state qualifiers per year. We try to group known dustance shooters together. Somtimes we have mixed groups with known and unknown shooters in the same group and have still never had problems.
The known distance classes will definitely increase your participation without a doubt.
Give it a try. Your shooters are more honest than you think. You will be surprised how well it works.
Mike Smith
Texas ASA State Director
9:06 pm
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Life Member
November 28, 2012
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Here is another email post between me and Mike:
To Mike:
This is great news. Do you hand out yardage sheets or allow users to use rangefinders?
Mike’s reply:
We allow rangefinders. It has worked out great for us
9:25 pm
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March 12, 2013
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As a new participant just getting started, my take on known vs. unknown is this. For me part of the challenge is not knowing the distance and working to better that skill. However, I see no problem with trying a known class to see what happens. We may be surprised. I do like the idea of not mixing known and unknown shooters whenever possible.
9:29 pm
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April 24, 2013
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I must say. I have never done the shoots before and I am very new to this. After having read the rules in its entirety I was discouraged by the speed limit and unknown yardage rules. I would have to buy a new bow to keep from having to change the poundage, sights, and arrows on my hunting setup. I shoot a Bowtech Insanity with a single pin HHA dial. I would have to drop the speed of that bow by close to 40 FPS just to come close. I understand that there is no need to have a fast bow and the advantages of a flatter shooting bow would handicap a tourney but I feel more hunters would be involved if they were not required to meet that rule. As for yardage guessing, I dont feel that would be a deal breaker and I would actually think that it would sharpen your hunting skills over time. It sounds like the point of this topic is to draw more members/shooters to the group and tourneys. So, It would only make sense to have a league of shooters that has no speed limit and allow them to use range finders and single pin slider sights as well. Just my 2.
7:00 am
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February 3, 2013
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Well we all know were i stand and Mr Piper said it well i think more bow hunters will get involved if we drop the speed limits shoot what you bring ! A nd i dont think we would have a problem with cheating with a known distance class our scores are for the most part based on honsety now .
8:01 am
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October 30, 2012
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I believe we are CRAZY if we don’t create a KD class. Slame CRAZY!!!!!!
As for the speed, it is more difficult. I am amazed at the number of bowhunters actually hunting with setups that shoot over 300 fps. If there was some way to poll all of them, I believe we would find that well over half are in that speed range. And yet, we have an upper limit of 280 fps. I bet over 80% hunt over that speed. How do we address this issue? I don’t really know. Simply changing the speed limit to 290 or 300 won’t fix it since most of the shooters are still over that speed.
So, with all that said, I am going to throw us out a starting point and let’s discuss it from there and see if we can come up with a good solution. One thing is for certain, the cheating angle was not valid. The groups simply have to police themselves just like they do on all the other rules. I know we are not ASA but ASA is averaging over 400 shooters a weekend shooting KD. That is about 1/3 of their shooters. A 33% increase in shooters at our shoots would be great. And we have no idea what the change in speed limit would do to attendance.
Known Distance Open – 40 yard max – Open type equipment
Known Distance Pins – 40 yard max – Hunting setup including sliding single pin sights. No magnification
May have to do a ladies class in each of these. Needs discussion.
Speed Class – 40 yards – Hunting setup including sliding single pin sights. No magnification – No speed limit
Don’t know if we have any ladies shooting over 280 fps
11:46 am
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October 24, 2012
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Why can’t we solve both speed limit and known distance problems with one class? Let the known distance shoters shoot from the red stake with no speed limit. It shouldn’t matter what sight they use as long as there is no magnification. Speed shouldn’t matter since you’re not guessing the yardage. It will all boil down to who can hold the pin on the dot every time. I know some are going to cry 50 yds is to much but at most shoots there is only 1 maybe 2 shots from that far anyway. After all they will know the distance anyway. JUST MY OPINION.
1:29 pm
Life Member
October 30, 2012
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I thought about that as well. But, I doubt many bowhunters are going to come out and shoot 50-75% of their targets over 35 yards. And that is an estimate for the red stake setup of course. While their bows may be fast, I imagine many still try to keep their shots under 35 yards.
The other reason I did two classes is your open type shooters will have their bows setup for current rules in the other orgs and will not be increasing their speed.
2:59 pm
Life Member
October 30, 2012
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I will start the “What If” list. There are currently 15 classes. This list has 15 classes. Fire away!
What if classes and distances
45 yard classes
Open A – 290 fps
Known Distance Open 290 fps
Sr. Advanced 290 fps
35 yard classes
Bowhunter 290 fps
Known Distance Bowhunter 290 fps
Speed Bowhunter Class no speed limit
Sr. Bowhunter 290 fps
Open B 290 fps
Women’s Bowhunter A 290 fps
Women’s Advanced 290 fps
Juniors 290 fps
25 Yard classes
Traditional
Youth
Women’s Bowhunter B
15 Yard Class
Cubs
3:53 pm
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Life Member
November 28, 2012
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I would move Open B to 45 yards. 45 may be a hair long but 35 is just too short. Also, you really don’t have a move up class for Bowhunters. I would try to reduce the 3 – 35 yard Men’s Bowhunter classes and add a move up bowhunter class. If you want to keep it at 15 classes.
The move up bowhunter class would have to be at the 45 yard stake.
Women’s, Juniors, Sr. classes could stay at 280fps.
5:43 pm
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October 24, 2012
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Why not just drop the speed limit completely? I know we try to befair to the short draw guys but I think it would draw in more folks. We are a bow hunting organization and we are turning away bow hunters by having a low speed limit. I’m fine with anything y’all come up with.
bamahuntin.com
8:24 pm
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October 24, 2012
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I have always advocated getting out of the rules business and shoot by someone else’s . The speed limit is always a thorn in our sides. Just doing away with it would be a help. If you make it 290 you make the IBO crowd mad. IT would be easier to just do away with the speed rule. I know from past experience you would have a certain percent of people that would get it dangerously fast and become a safety hazard again. I remember in the 90s some were shooting overdraws and pushing 300 back then. That is why IBO put the 5 grains into play. You then open another can of worms to enforce the 5 grains per pound. Another way to handle it would be to write into the rules you would go by the highest speed in whatever organization was the fastest. The next issue is class shooting distance. We have so many classes that are redundate of the same classes. WE have stakes at every distance but 35 yards and 45 yards max. Why would we have so many different classes with the same criteria? Kids classes seem to be alright and everything below 25yards. I believe the 30 yard classes are the issue. 75% of the shooters shoot from 30 and under. In the 90s era everybody shot from the same stake and the max was 35 for a while and 40 at another time. All adults shot from the same stake! You can’t tell me with all this technology and bow speed we can’t back the 30 yard stake to 35. That would help target damage and also help everyone hone their skills. A little common sense in course setting would make this only a minimial issue. Just the threat of another 5 yards changes the game and would help clubs on target damage. Increasing the speed limit would greatly effect target damage at close ranges.Now my next point is it has been proven that people want to do well. If you make the courses hard they do not enjoy shooting as well. We don ‘t need to do anything that makes people not want to participate. Max yardage is the max distance not all the targets have to be the same. It would be nice to let some organization set the rules and just use what they have in place. No matter what we do other than get out of the rule bussiness will always cause us to loose members.
8:36 pm
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February 21, 2013
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When I first started attending shoots it was to improve my shooting skills as a hunter. Now I like shooting for points their no 12 ring on a real deer just a heart shot and his not standing still most of the time. 1st what is the end goal? Is it to get more bowhunters in the BHA or to get more bowhunters to attend the shoots? I say both. I have been a member for two years now and I have changed my hunting set up to shoot in the bowhunter class. Is this the same set up that I hunt with? NO… I like most hunters would like to shoot the same set up that they hunt with if they are coming to the shoots just to improve their hunting skills and there is no class for them. We need a shoot what you bring, no speed limit class. This is a great class for the 1st time shooter at the shoot. They just bring what they got and shoot at that ever max distance and in, how easy is that. This class would work for all level of shooters. Then from there as they get better or want to move to one of the other classes they can providing that they change their bow set up to the rules of that class. I had a hard time this year when I went to buy a new bow for hunting and 3D shooting. I had to turn my poundage down to the max to get under 280fps and shoot a heavy arrow just to get my bow to be legal to shoot then hunting season opens I will change it back to my hunting set up to hunt with.
Think about it, what is the end goal, then how do we get there with the least amount of change.
Mathews Chill, Gold Tip - Pro Hunter - XXX, QAD, True Fire, Bohning, B Stinger......
8:53 pm
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November 28, 2012
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I don’t see IBO setting any attendance records. 4 to 5 years ago they had a good number of vendors and Pro shooters shot the IBO in Wetumpka. They have dropped shoots and attendance was low at the Wetumpka shoot last year.
I started shooting BHA again in 2009. My first shoot was a Trail Shoot at Autauga. I went to the practice bags and I was standing next to Joseph Goza. Seems like we very seldom see the top shooters in Alabama shooting BHA. One or two every now and then. I wonder why? Is it the rules the BHA drama?
We need to reach out to the top shooter in the state and get their opinions.
8:58 pm
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February 21, 2013
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Remember that we are the Bowhunters of Alabama not the ASA or IBO. A shooting class should be set up for the everyday bowhunter that has no restrictions on shooting. Then tell all of your hunting buddies to come out and shoot 3D. We need to offer something different than the ASA or IBO. then get the word out and this will help with turn out.
Mathews Chill, Gold Tip - Pro Hunter - XXX, QAD, True Fire, Bohning, B Stinger......
9:37 pm
Leldon,
I agree with a lot what you have said but I am not seeing the reasoning behind using another organizations rules. Is that so that we have someone else to blame when issues come up? We are very capable of creating our own rules and living by them. The trick is finding that fine line that creates enough rules for people to feel as if they are competing with people of their same skill set and keeping it fun to attract people to bowhunting. I am also not sure I believe in backing everyone up because technology is better. I do somewhat see your point but I bet a large majority of hunters only practice and feel comfortable at to maybe 30 yards. At one point years ago I read/heard that the average bow shot on a deer was about 18-20 yards. I would be interested to know what it is today.
Jason,
The reason we don’t see big name shooters is because they can win good money on a national stage versus a $3 pin on a local stage. However, reaching out to them may be a good idea. What if we could get our top shooters to be available for providing instructions. Kind of like a “meet the pros” deal. We have shooters who have won Buckmasters and ASA/IBO events. Promote the fact they are at the shoot and available for questions. What do ya’ll think?
I believe there a few ways to increase membership/attendance:
1) Somehow provide a good monetary payback like ASA/IBO. Money always draws people.
2) Take out the fear of the unknown for the average Joe bowhunter. Known distance and keeping the distance reasonable should do this.
3) Pull in NASP shooters as they grow out of NASP. Did you guys see(in AON) how many NASP shooters attended the state shoot!! We(BHA) must grab their attention.
Sorry that this post is geared toward attendance and not rules, directly.
Keep up the good discussion. There have been some great ideas provided.
8:35 am
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October 24, 2012
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Kenny, I have been around for a long time and I have seen this dog chase his tail for a long time. I have seen everything you all are talking about changed and then changed again because another group decides they have a better answer. We hve tried to set our rules over and over again. Everytime we set new rules they make a circle and go back in the same direction. We loose shooters every time we decide to MAKE BHA different. I am advocating let someone else set the rules and just adopt something that is working. Remember I have been around for a long time and maybe you will see what I am talking about one day. I am going to prove my point on backing the 30 yard class up to 35. What do you have to do to shoot a 30 yard target? When you know it can not be over 30 yards you can shoot 25 and still hit a 10 and if it is 20 you can shoot a 25 and still hit a 10. What are you teaching the shooter? It continues to be true now that you do not have to judge yardage to stay in the ten ring. You will not shoot a 12 but you will shoot a 10. If you doubt this look it up on a computer program. Now I have been convinced people like to do well and that is why they like the 30 yard class . In these times of struggling clubs ; we are chasing our tails again with target damage. You cannot set a course that will not get the targets shot up when 75% of the shooters shoot from 30 yards or less. I advocate shooter friendly courses and say they need to be easy but need the element of a person having to think . I do not know a bowhunter that does not go into teh woods prepared to shoot 35 yards. Most are prepared to shoot 40. Taking the fear out of competition does not take 75% of the shooters shooting 30 and under. We increased participation by shortened up but now we are killing our targets with faster bows and the majority shooting 30 yards. A minority needs to be shooting 30 and under.
9:06 am
Leldon, you have to keep in mind that what I think we are trying to accomplish is to get Joe Blow Bowhunter off the couch and to our shoots and become part of BHA. In my opinion backing up their yardage is not the answer to doing that. There needs to be a 30 yard class for people coming into BHA for the first time, as their is now. The problem is, you end up with some very good shooters who stay in a 30 yard class when they should move back. Maybe we need to find a way to move them back. As for the 12/10 ring issue at 30 yards. I don’t doubt you. I shot a 30 yard class when I first came into BHA. I know you can shoot it with one pin. However, It was the most competitive shooting I was ever a part of. I have since moved back to 40 yards and now I don’t compete. Am I learning anything at 40 yards that will help me as a bowhunter? No, not really. If you want to “teach” people something then put them 15 feet up a tree and have them shoot from there. That’s where the rubber meets the road.
Do I have all the answers, HECK NO. There are just so many ways to look at where we are and where do we want to be and how do we get there, it is confusing at times. I do not agree with fact that just because we start advertising that we are using ASA or IBO rules we will be flooded with shooters. They are successful, that is for sure. but they are national and pay back good money to top finishers and we are local and give away $3 hat pins. We are what we are and we need to make sure cater to our home grown in-state bowhunters.
9:54 am
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October 24, 2012
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I agree with everything you just said! Now how to get the bowhunters off the couch. We have tried a lot of things through the years and what works is keep it simple but do a good job of making people welcomed. I think you see I am on the same page now. The issues we are facing are: 1) Making enough profit that we can have good targets and survive to give back to our sport. 2.) Provide a fair enviroment for competition. 3) Encourage participation for the beginner and the advanced shooters 4) Have consistant rules so there is no gray area . We are discussing rules that need to be changed so we can do all the above. Now the three year lock is a reprecussion of years past and trying to be consistant. In principle it sounds good until all the other rules are changed by other organizations. I personally see the good that was done by closing down the distance to 30 yards, but now it has created a new problem with finances. Target damage is twice what it was before. You see the dog chasing his tail again! I remember along time ago being told if there was a better way it would have already been done. I too do not have all the answers and can only relate to my past experiences. All we can do is try to keep up with the times. The average guy is not going to get up off the couch and practice all year long. He likes the couch too much!LOL
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